Nukkad

[Suraj]

Irrelevant.
The process is godawful and that does not change. I could be a citizen of Timbuktoo and the fact does not change that the process for OCI renewal is illogical and totally awful.

Maybe for you since in your case an OCI application for your child involves establishing a complex familial link on the paternal side. Any bureaucratic process is a function of the level of complexity you throw at it. When you deal with OCI involving 2 (or 3 ?) generations of phoren passports, you can expect things to take time. Others with a standard OCI process like Gus have already chimed in with a contrary view to yours.

This kind of complexity is expected in your case. It was the case when I applied for a UQ visa for the first time. They asked me why I'm applying for a visa when I'm eligible to be a permanent resident and can apply for passport if I wanted. I asked them how I can be a permanent resident of a place I've never been to ? That is a quirk of their law, the result of what my parent/grandparents did/didn't do a long time before I was even born. Similarly your and your father's citizenship history impacts your son's paperwork.

And I've a separate experience to offer. I applied for the 'e-Visa' electronic travel authorization to India, for SHQ and kid recently. The process is super easy and straightforward. Scan passport biodata page as PDF, and some recent passport size photo (just make sure photo is at least 350x350 pixels and <1MB and a perfect square, in JPG format. MS paint can do that for you; I used Preview on my Mac. Upload both. Fill in application. Enter credit card for payment ($25 for Japanese nationals) and hit submit. I applied on a Saturday late evening (~11pm) Calif time. Had email notification of granting both the next evening (Sunday) ~5pm. If that's not an efficient system for phoren ppl, I don't know what is.

[Gus]

just like some people who migrated in 70s and 80s have this frozen view of indian socio-cultural...we have the same frozen view of indian bureaucracy.

it is changing. i can see visible changes in many process. passport renewal is a breeze now. Around 2008, my photo page lamination was separating from the hardcover by just a couple mm and for that, the US consulate refused to stamp visa and asked me to get a new passport.

my addresses were all in different areas and it took me a month to get it all organized and another month to get passport back. my manager allowed me to work from home for two months as I expired all vacation.

Now with aadhaar and previous passport, new passport is a matter of days.

[Marten]

Gus, my point is that these services should improve first for Indian citizens and then for others. OCI etc is all fine, but the focus should remain on simple services like getting a gas connection, new electric meter, local permits for construction, property taxes payment, etc. improve for citizens at the local level.

Mort ji, OCI is a privilege. You are free to not invest in Indian bonds until services improve. They should, but not at the cost of Indian citizens who subsidize these services.

[Gus]

Does not your bank online access have that feature?

for me, the hdfc guy came to my home to get it done for me (perks of being in a small town). but i do note that link in hdfc online access.

managed to link aadhaar to PAN painlessly in a matter of minutes but others whine about it.

managed to get ITRV done online as well with aadhaar and OTP in matter of minutes.

The aadhaar and OTP mechanism will make most things painless in the near future. even lower middle class people have lost appetite to stand in queue and demand faster services. some state govts are realizing this as a low-hanging fruit to get some voter satisfaction, but TN as usual pats its back on empty boasting but coasting on past performance and getting to stalling stage now...

[Mort Walker]

Gus, my point is that these services should improve first for Indian citizens and then for others. OCI etc is all fine, but the focus should remain on simple services like getting a gas connection, new electric meter, local permits for construction, property taxes payment, etc. improve for citizens at the local level.

Mort ji, OCI is a privilege. You are free to not invest in Indian bonds until services improve. They should, but not at the cost of Indian citizens who subsidize these services.

Martenji,

Yes OCI is a privilege, but it was the GoI that decided to offer it. If I were in GoI, I would not and have left PIO as it was without benefit. The Kangressis decided to milk the idea to get investment.

I don’t see how not being responsive to OCI applicants will improve public services within India. There is a budget for external affairs that accounts for visa and counselor activities.

[Mort Walker]

Irrelevant.
The process is godawful and that does not change. I could be a citizen of Timbuktoo and the fact does not change that the process for OCI renewal is illogical and totally awful.

Maybe for you since in your case an OCI application for your child involves establishing a complex familial link on the paternal side. Any bureaucratic process is a function of the level of complexity you throw at it. When you deal with OCI involving 2 (or 3 ?) generations of phoren passports, you can expect things to take time. Others with a standard OCI process like Gus have already chimed in with a contrary view to yours.

This kind of complexity is expected in your case. It was the case when I applied for a UQ visa for the first time. They asked me why I'm applying for a visa when I'm eligible to be a permanent resident and can apply for passport if I wanted. I asked them how I can be a permanent resident of a place I've never been to ? That is a quirk of their law, the result of what my parent/grandparents did/didn't do a long time before I was even born. Similarly your and your father's citizenship history impacts your son's paperwork.

And I've a separate experience to offer. I applied for the 'e-Visa' electronic travel authorization to India, for SHQ and kid recently. The process is super easy and straightforward. Scan passport biodata page as PDF, and some recent passport size photo (just make sure photo is at least 350x350 pixels and <1MB and a perfect square, in JPG format. MS paint can do that for you; I used Preview on my Mac. Upload both. Fill in application. Enter credit card for payment ($25 for Japanese nationals) and hit submit. I applied on a Saturday late evening (~11pm) Calif time. Had email notification of granting both the next evening (Sunday) ~5pm. If that's not an efficient system for phoren ppl, I don't know what is.

I’ve applied for a 10 year Indian tourist visa on a Thursday, FedEx package on Friday to CGI contractor, received visa approval on Monday evening, received FedEx shipping on Tuesday and US passports received on Wednesday. This with CGI Houston. I was planning on driving down to Houston, but friends said just do it on line and submit and it will be faster. CGI Houston window service is atrocious even for Indian passport holders.

[Suraj]

Why would you want to use an in person service when the online system is so much more efficient ? I live in the Bay Area but have never been to CGISF in person. Both my last 2 passport renewals were done entirely online though I could drive 45 minutes. They set up an efficient processing system, why complicate matters by using F2F approach that they may no longer even be well staffed to run ?

As a datapoint, my UKF/UKM entitlement to UQ citizenship if I desire, takes 6-10 months. Not that I want it, since I've no ties to that country. But that's the standard timeline of a bhestern country to establish your ancestry for a permanent resident status equivalent to OCI, or for an actual passport. What's more, you have to send them your current passport during that time. You could send a certified copy , but at some arbitrary time they'll want the original too. All this has to be posted to UQ.

There are lots of people with claims like 'my father born in Uganda to British parents and my mother in Papua Guinea to Scottish mom and Russian father. Do I have claim to be a British citizen ?'. It takes a long time to wade through old documents to confirm. I suspect a whole bunch of people in India have independence era family history that's not well documented and OCI takes time in this case. Similarly, quite a few people have latent claim to UQ ancestry visa or passport this way.

[Mort Walker]

F2F may be the only option if you don’t have time, but I’ve learned not to go that route. The other reason is that if you’re local, you may be able to save on the FedEx shipping costs to/from (we are after all SDRE baniyas).

[Suraj]

Considering SF parking cost and related aggravation, we save little here by trying to save on FedEx.

[Mort Walker]

The CGIs offer window consular services on Saturday mornings and will often send officers to nearby towns. I know CGI Houston comes up to Dallas once a week and I'm sure CGI SFO travels to Seattle and LA. I've met CGI officials before and they encourage OCI and ask Indian origin people to invest in India.

[Singha]

well look the US state dept also phones up GC holders to ask them to take up citizenship.
a former brf stalwart such a call. everyone wants you to invest, even the local chinese takeaway would like you to invest in their business and buy meals.

people are free to not invest and not ever visit india if they dont want to - and many have indeed gone that route.

a lady friend of my buddy in virginia is on anti-depresseant pills for a while now. apparently she is 1 of 4 siblings all are elites settled abroad and the father lived alone without much social contact. his body was discovered 4 months after death being eaten by worms and maggots and the morgue in india showed her that whether in real life or a pic. some will say how could 4 kids have let it happen, but it happens all the time.

none of your kids will ever work in india or have much contact with india , and their kids absolute zero in a few years.

so why get all hot and bothered about what is in reality a fleeting phase. ask your kids how much they care about this OCI business and they will say not at all. most of them would hate the sweat and dust of india and will never invest a dime here.

its all ok. but dont spend so many cycles on this - you (1st gen emigrant) really are the end of the line as far as deep interest in india goes.

enjoy your life and live it out in quiet comfort, but dont expect a 'legacy' of ties to india. its over the moment you decided to settle permanently abroad.

[Zynda]

you (1st gen emigrant) really are the end of the line as far as deep interest in india goes.

Well said saar. I see many in my circles who have recently gained phoren citizenship refuse to accept the above. The more pragmatic have accepted the above along with the fact that their parents (if they refuse to stay outside of India for longer durations) will probably spend their last days alone or in old age homes or along with cousins/relatives in India who are willing to accept them (the more luckier ones have at least one of their kids residing in India and perhaps will be close enough or permit to stay along & care for them). Perhaps will come off as callous but as far as they are concerned, their future lies in their adopted country and not in India.

[Raja]

Best is not to hanker after any legacy. Leave no trace.

[Gus]

Bought a bike a year ago from a retd IIT M prof in chn. Poor guy had a stroke and unable to ride the RE anymore. lives alone as spouse passed away. some relatives in blr but kids abroad. it was sad to see him feel so lonely. he was even calling me and texting me for some general talking..that's how lonely he was. This 'passing away and not discovered' thing is going to happen a lot more before people start adapting to those devices that monitor or whatever.

[Mort Walker]

well look the US state dept also phones up GC holders to ask them to take up citizenship.
a former brf stalwart such a call. everyone wants you to invest, even the local chinese takeaway would like you to invest in their business and buy meals.

people are free to not invest and not ever visit india if they dont want to - and many have indeed gone that route.

a lady friend of my buddy in virginia is on anti-depresseant pills for a while now. apparently she is 1 of 4 siblings all are elites settled abroad and the father lived alone without much social contact. his body was discovered 4 months after death being eaten by worms and maggots and the morgue in india showed her that whether in real life or a pic. some will say how could 4 kids have let it happen, but it happens all the time.

none of your kids will ever work in india or have much contact with india , and their kids absolute zero in a few years.

so why get all hot and bothered about what is in reality a fleeting phase. ask your kids how much they care about this OCI business and they will say not at all. most of them would hate the sweat and dust of india and will never invest a dime here.

its all ok. but dont spend so many cycles on this - you (1st gen emigrant) really are the end of the line as far as deep interest in india goes.

enjoy your life and live it out in quiet comfort, but dont expect a 'legacy' of ties to india. its over the moment you decided to settle permanently abroad.

Singhaji,

What I want is the PIO designation again, just to be clear as it was unambiguous compared to OCI. You are correct as it will matter what my kids want to do in the future.

Don't know if the following belongs in the L&M dhaaga -
My kids have a more strong religious connection due to SHQ's side of the family in MP and Maharashtra than I do. SHQ's family is very tight knit with kids of each sibling knowing each other well into their 20s. In the last 10 years, SHQ and kids have spent more time in India than I have during their formative years as teenagers. Then again, I don't know what the future holds. In 15 years, if I live, I will retire and most likely have a small <1000 sq.ft. property in Texas, but most of time will be in India. Both SHQ and I will be young enough to travel and have a home near Nagpur.

[rsingh]

well look the US state dept also phones up GC holders to ask them to take up citizenship.
a former brf stalwart such a call. everyone wants you to invest, even the local chinese takeaway would like you to invest in their business and buy meals.

people are free to not invest and not ever visit india if they dont want to - and many have indeed gone that route.

a lady friend of my buddy in virginia is on anti-depresseant pills for a while now. apparently she is 1 of 4 siblings all are elites settled abroad and the father lived alone without much social contact. his body was discovered 4 months after death being eaten by worms and maggots and the morgue in india showed her that whether in real life or a pic. some will say how could 4 kids have let it happen, but it happens all the time.

none of your kids will ever work in india or have much contact with india , and their kids absolute zero in a few years.

so why get all hot and bothered about what is in reality a fleeting phase. ask your kids how much they care about this OCI business and they will say not at all. most of them would hate the sweat and dust of india and will never invest a dime here.

its all ok. but dont spend so many cycles on this - you (1st gen emigrant) really are the end of the line as far as deep interest in india goes.

enjoy your life and live it out in quiet comfort, but dont expect a 'legacy' of ties to india. its over the moment you decided to settle permanently abroad.

This is very much true. I have one more problem.I am going to inherit a residential plot in city and big parcel og agricultural land in NCR area. Non of my kids are interested . They love grand parents and thats it. After grandpparents are gone ,they have no reason to be in india .My mother wishes that nobody sells ancestral property. unless I find some courage and start some project there , it is all gone. My siblings in India konw this.

[Suraj]

What I want is the PIO designation again, just to be clear as it was unambiguous compared to OCI. You are correct as it will matter what my kids want to do in the future.

Despite what you claim, 'PIO' is as ambiguous as 'OCI' . PIO was applicable to non-Indian spouses of Indians . Continuing the strange literalism of 'OCI', how is a non-Indian a Person of Indian Origin ?

The bottomline is that different things sound good to different people. You don't like OCI ? Fine, don't apply for it. The reality is that the current OCI is a very popular option for many people.

[Mort Walker]

Suraj-san,

I'm trying to understand what the law is. Why is that so hard for you to see?

All I'm saying is that OCI is defined within amendment to the 1955 Citizenship Act and amendments to it. PIO was at the discretion of MEA and people knowing that I have no rights or obligations as a visitor to India. Yes OCI is popular and when I'm ready to take it, based on what my rights are as defined by that act and official gazette, I will avail it.

An OCI does have some rights, just yesterday -

Consulate General of India
New York

Press Release

Aadhaar for Non Resident Indians (NRIs) and Persons of Indian Origin (PIOs)

Aadhaar Card enrolment is presently available to residents in India. Overseas Citizen of India (OCI) Cardholders who stay in India for a long time (over 182 days in twelve months immediately preceding the date of application for enrolment) and have an Indian address can also enroll for Aadhaar Card in India. Non Resident Indians (NRIs), although they are citizens of India, are not eligible for Aadhaar Card if they have not stayed for more than 182 days or more in the last 12 months. Upon completion of 182 days of their stay in India in the last 12 months immediately preceding the date of application for enrolment, NRIs can apply for Aadhaar Card.

"As per Section 139AA of the Income-tax Act, 1961, every person who is eligible to obtain Aadhaar number shall, on or after the 1st day of July, 2017, quote Aadhaar number- (i) in the application form for allotment of permanent account number; (ii) in the return of income. The above provisions apply to persons who are eligible to get Aadhaar. Under section 3 of the Aadhaar Act, 2016, only a resident is entitled to get Aadhaar. Therefore, the provisions of Section 139AA quoted above regarding linking of Aadhaar to PAN or the requirement of quoting the Aadhaar number in the return shall not apply to a non-resident, who is not eligible to get Aadhaar."

*****
New York
December 4, 2017

[Kabir]

I remember in my early work days I used to be conscious of a lot of things sometimes - what I would wear to work or to functions, if my music is too loud on a train, what people would think if I say this or that or choosing words carefully in public speaking. As I have aged most of these anxieties have gone away automatically. Its a good feeling when you don't give 2 cents worth of your attention or reaction to most things around you. Its a big boost to the happiness quotient to jus please your own self and not others

[Marten]

well look the US state dept also phones up GC holders to ask them to take up citizenship.
a former brf stalwart such a call. everyone wants you to invest, even the local chinese takeaway would like you to invest in their business and buy meals.

people are free to not invest and not ever visit india if they dont want to - and many have indeed gone that route.

a lady friend of my buddy in virginia is on anti-depresseant pills for a while now. apparently she is 1 of 4 siblings all are elites settled abroad and the father lived alone without much social contact. his body was discovered 4 months after death being eaten by worms and maggots and the morgue in india showed her that whether in real life or a pic. some will say how could 4 kids have let it happen, but it happens all the time.

none of your kids will ever work in india or have much contact with india , and their kids absolute zero in a few years.

so why get all hot and bothered about what is in reality a fleeting phase. ask your kids how much they care about this OCI business and they will say not at all. most of them would hate the sweat and dust of india and will never invest a dime here.

its all ok. but dont spend so many cycles on this - you (1st gen emigrant) really are the end of the line as far as deep interest in india goes.

enjoy your life and live it out in quiet comfort, but dont expect a 'legacy' of ties to india. its over the moment you decided to settle permanently abroad.

This is very much true. I have one more problem.I am going to inherit a residential plot in city and big parcel og agricultural land in NCR area. Non of my kids are interested . They love grand parents and thats it. After grandpparents are gone ,they have no reason to be in india .My mother wishes that nobody sells ancestral property. unless I find some courage and start some project there , it is all gone. My siblings in India konw this.

Your agricultural land will disappear within a year of being uninhabited. The only way to conserve it is to have land occupied and protected. In fact if you got an apartment constructed in partnership, and retained a couple of houses, you would at least have some leverage. However even that will not protect kids from harsh situations after you pass. The decision to retain ancestral land is an emotional one and it is for that reason that we sold our parcels and exited at the cost of relationships with relatives who coveted the land. Good riddance though. My kids will need a new legacy (not mine, but something of a more diffuse nature) .

[Suraj]

All I'm saying is that OCI is defined within amendment to the 1955 Citizenship Act and amendments to it.

It is STILL not a citizenship I can't believe you keep going on calling it one all because the word appears in the name, and demanding things of it that don't exist as per law.

[Gus]

mort - i posted a screenshot from your own link. Just because it is defined within amendment to that act, does not make oci holder some sort of citizen.

did you read your own link?

it does not say what you think it says.

[Singha]

http://www.news18.com/news/india/indian ... 96799.html

survey says indian-americans face lot more unfair police treatment than chinese-americans

[Raja]

India doesn’t allow dual citizenship, period. Why so much debate hain ji? They can call OCI the Premiership of Timbucktoo for all that it matters, it doesn’t mean it is anything more than a glorified GC.

[Mort Walker]

http://www.news18.com/news/india/indian ... 96799.html

survey says indian-americans face lot more unfair police treatment than chinese-americans

If a cop is looking to stop a vehicle and sees a dark skin person, he is more likely to stop them. If you drive an older pickup truck, as an Indian, you’re more likely to be stopped thinking you may be an illegal Hispanic. Indians being darker skin, as said, are harassed some 8 times more than fair skin East Asians.

One solution is to install a gun rack in your pickup truck and put an umbrella in it. Chances are most cops won’t stop you, bad part is, the one that does will probably shoot you 5 times first.